tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21469458.post6125975119372431852..comments2023-10-31T05:04:03.273-04:00Comments on A Suburban Saga: Favoritism...Ellenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08837261146374200032noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21469458.post-7224265734193329312007-08-29T17:53:00.000-04:002007-08-29T17:53:00.000-04:00Why do you assume that the sins of pride and gossi...Why do you assume that the sins of pride and gossip would not be confronted? I think they do need to be confronted. I don't think we all ought to be wearing pantyhose and collared blouses to church, but we do need to be willing to learn how to live in a community of love. That could (should) involve older saints learning to open their hearts to people who do not look like "traditional" Christians, and it could (should) also involve new Christians learning things like, for example, how a woman's clothing can cause a man to stuggle with sinful thoughts, and how as a family where we love one another, we try to avoid tempting others to sin as much as possible.<BR/><BR/>I am sorry that some of the commenters were treated unlovingly. I have also been treated unlovingly. It made me very angry. I still don't have very positive feelings about the person who did it. But, unloving and hurtful as she was, there was a point to what she said, a kernel of truth (maybe more than a kernel) that I should learn from. She criticized me for being a mature believer who is shy and fails to reach out to people as I ought to. She really hurt my feelings. The way she approached me did not build my confidence or help me to feel motivated to do the things she said I ought to do; rather, she crushed my spirit and made me feel more shy and awkward than ever. But, all the same, what she said was true.<BR/><BR/>Another problem with the idea of church discipline is that the word "discipline" has such a connotation of judgement and punishment. But really, to discipline is to teach. Don't you think mature believers should teach new believers about how to increase in the life of love and respect for one another that God has called us to? <BR/><BR/>I don't think this is usually best handled by cornering an individual in a room and telling him/her what is wrong with his/her life. It is best handled in loving relationships. Ellen said at one point that we shouldn't expect sin issues to be dealt with instantaneously. I couldn't agree more! It is not where people ARE that concerns me--it is where they are HEADED. The thing that concerns me is that I have seen some churches that seem comfortable keeping people where they are, not challenging them to grow. I've never been to the church Ellen wrote about--I don't even know where it is. It could be an absolutely wonderful church, changing lives with the power of Jesus' love.<BR/><BR/>It just makes me sad when churches let people be comfortable in sin and don't challenge them to grow.<BR/><BR/>(from Ruth or anonymous, or however it comes out--I'm not too techy)Ruthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17302882888973801105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21469458.post-36834041267189486792007-08-27T09:58:00.000-04:002007-08-27T09:58:00.000-04:00Wow. This post is pretty killer. As someone who ra...Wow. This post is pretty killer. As someone who rarely felt like I fit in with the "Christian Kids" I think I have the exact oposite problem as you Ellen, dear. I go to church looking for White Stripes t-shirts and tattoos (exageration alert.. Redeemer has a nice mix and I haven't yet encountered too many punks.. still looking ;) ). Anyway.. Stephen and I always feel judged and misunderstood by the "Church Crowd" so we tend to put them in our box full of stereotypes. This is super hypocritical!!! How the heck do I know what kind of music they listen too or what sort of movies they watch??? They could be more like me than I know but I am so afraid that they listen exclusively to Amy Grant and shielded their eyes during Titanic that I don't give them a chance. That's not cool. I think it's important to feel comfortable where you worship... and I truly appreciate your honesty in sharing what pecks at the borders of your comfort zone. It makes me wonder about my own. Always nice to have someone put a mirror in front of your face. Thanks Anne girl.SMShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17756514067236409850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21469458.post-29031173227457221562007-08-26T19:48:00.000-04:002007-08-26T19:48:00.000-04:00I am troubled by the comparison of one's relations...I am troubled by the comparison of one's relationships with other believers and/or church attendees to the parent-child relationship. Certainly we must discipline our children, even as we know that we ourselves-- as parents-- are not perfect. We're <I>older</I> and have more life experience than our children. Children can be impulsive, have limited understanding of consequences, and often lack in basic social skills! For their <I>survival,</I> if nothing else, we must responsibly and lovingly correct them.<BR/><BR/>To assume that I "know more about something than somebody else," just as I know more than my immature children, can have devastating consequences. People <BR/>"wearing sexually revealing clothing" have taught me about Jesus' love, as have people wearing designer labels. I would guess that the hidden sins of complacency and pride are pointed out less often than "irreverence and Biblical ignorance," but are they less displeasing to God?<BR/><BR/>Years ago I was the recipient of supposedly well-meaning correction by "mature" Christians. I wasn't campaigning for "gay rights," or using "foul language"-- <I>and I'm sure I wasn't asking to be "spoiled."</I> BUT I WAS DIFFERENT. Being treated like a misbehaving child tainted the professions of love and acceptance. When church "insiders" claim the right to correct others, it can quickly get out of hand-- and revealing Christ's love is the first casualty.Annhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17268632905719873969noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21469458.post-18376003279182687462007-08-25T17:14:00.000-04:002007-08-25T17:14:00.000-04:00anonymous here again...I think one of the keys to ...anonymous here again...<BR/><BR/>I think one of the keys to being able to help people grow past their sin is to be upfront about our own, which is something that is not very commonly done, it seems to me. "You need to be more perfect, like me," is a totally unaccepting and unacceptable attitude. "I'm dealing with a similar struggle, and these are scriptures God has used to speak to me," is a bit better.<BR/><BR/>Whether a liberal, seeker-sensitive, "it doesn't matter how you live because we are in the age of grace" kind of church, or a sour, judgemental, legalistic one, the problem often seems to boil down to personal pride: "We do church better than they do, because we know how to interpret God's Word and they don't." (Or, some churches don't even care about interpreting God's Word.)<BR/><BR/>We do have to point out wrongs even though we aren't perfect. Just think if, as a parent, you decided that you would not discipline your child until you were perfect. You would never discipline him, and society would devolve even faster than it is devolving right now. But you know that you need to discipline your child in love, for his own good. This is also how church discipline needs to take place--in love, and for good. Discipline means teaching. If you know more about something than somebody else, then you should teach them. Lovingly. And when you make a mistake (which you will), you need to be ready to admit it, and learn from the person who points it out, and apologize... the leaders need to set an example of humility. Hmmm. Seems like Somebody else once taught about leaders setting examples of humility. <BR/><BR/>Nobody likes to discipline. Ask me about the times I have neglected to discipline my own children, just because it was too "unpleasant." How much more unpleasant it is when it involves being candid with others about our own sins and risking humiliation by exposing them. However, that does not excuse mature believers from doing something that God has commanded us to do (yes, He has, even though it rarely happens).<BR/><BR/>Most important of all, we need to set our eyes and hearts on the Lord, spend daily time in His Word and in prayer, and never decide that we have figured it all out and are finished with our spiritual growth. That kind of attitude is what gets all kinds of churches into trouble (and not just legalistic ones; people who are convinced that grace trumps justice and campaign for gay rights share the same prideful attitude as the churches that turn gays away from their doors--they all think they know the answer). God isn't finished with anyone yet. Anyone who thinks he has figured out God's mind and no longer needs to search the scriptures is pridefully fooling himself.<BR/><BR/>God gave us a narrow path to find so that we, like Peter on the water, would need to keep our eyes on Him and our hands reaching out for Him. Love the sinner; hate the sin. It's an old saying, but who has accomplished it besides Jesus?Ruthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17302882888973801105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21469458.post-18877598001941121792007-08-25T09:23:00.000-04:002007-08-25T09:23:00.000-04:00sorry for the typos! too much coffee.sorry for the typos! too much coffee.Alicehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01422261092572705823noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21469458.post-82328069292910034272007-08-25T09:21:00.000-04:002007-08-25T09:21:00.000-04:00I loved your post! You said so many things that I...I loved your post! You said so many things that I have been thinking myself, (only you said them much clearer!)<BR/><BR/>I have to say that we all, as Believers, are on the sin spectrum. If I believe if it my duty to Christ to point out to others the areas where they are "not quite there yet" then I am a HUGE hypocrite. And let me tell you, I am a huge hypocrite - because that is what I tend to do all the time (but cowardly and mostly in my mind or behind their backs).<BR/><BR/>I wonder if maybe the balance comes in remembering that all who profess Christ all accepted, AND all who profess Christ are in need of on-going discipleship. How that plays out is a mystery to me, but I've seen it done and I've been the recipient of that kind of love. And it is awesome.<BR/><BR/>But I have to tell you that if I feel discipline coming down on me with out the acceptance (without a loving relationship), it's feels very ugly and not of God.<BR/><BR/>Thanks again for your post. I hope you find a church home soon.Alicehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01422261092572705823noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21469458.post-17500775563898990702007-08-24T22:10:00.000-04:002007-08-24T22:10:00.000-04:00I completely agree that a church should not condon...I completely agree that a church should not condone sin. That doesn't do anyone any favors. Sin should always be pointed out lovingly. I am not in favor of churches being comfortable with sin in the name of getting people in. However, we must give everyone the chance to hear the Gospel, even if they are dressed inappropriately when they come in the door. Every new believer, (and all old ones, too), have sin issues that they need to deal with. We don't conquer them instantaneously when we come to Christ. Whether it's immodest dress or jealousy, for instance, we're all struggling to overcome each day. We need to extend each other some grace as we learn how become more like Jesus.Ellenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08837261146374200032noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21469458.post-33998739824789015842007-08-24T20:58:00.000-04:002007-08-24T20:58:00.000-04:00It is important to serve others, and it is a bless...It is important to serve others, and it is a blessing to have that opportunity right in your own church. However, it is also important to realize that SERVING is not the same as SPOILING. We live in a culture that encourages spoiling, from churches to parents who are unable to say no to their children and teach them right from wrong.<BR/><BR/>While I truly believe that we are to love everyone, to reach out to everyone, to minister the love of Christ to everyone, the place where you need to draw the line is when it comes to giving in to sin. Yes, we forgive. But forgiveness means that we first recognize that there is a wrong that needs to be forgiven. Truly loving as Christ loves means not leaving people to steep in their sin.<BR/><BR/>So if you find a church that has open arms to draw people in by the love of God and to be used by Him in some way as conduits of the grace that transforms, TRANSFORMS, lives, then that is a good thing. But if it is all about making people feel comfortable in their sin, accepting them in sexually revealing clothing and putting up with foul language, irreverence and Biblical ignorance without taking strides to help to improve these issues, then please beware.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com